This interview was made over zoom in July 2021 with my friend Johnny Giles who I first met when I was 18 back in 1995 in Brighton when he helped organise a gig I played when supporting electronic act Autechre. He conducted this interview as part of an academic research project about authenticity and commercial music production.
JG: Tell me a bit about your work as an artist and how you first got into it?
SP: Well I just doing music as a hobby at school, basically making kind of rave music and then when my brother moved to London, I started giving tape demos to a few different people including guy called Rockit who ran a record shop which I used to go to quite a bit called Worm Interface in Soho. After a while, I started getting a bit of interest, the guy who ran the shop was starting a record label and around the same time Rob from Autechre was also working in the shop. I gave him the tape as well which resulted in getting a call from Andy at Skam Records. So yeah, that was very early stages when I started to actually get some music out which around the same time led to doing a few gigs around the same scene.
JG: Was that mid 90s, around when Warp Records Artificial intelligence albums came out?
SP: Around then yeah, I heard that first one when at school, I started to get into that and had just about heard of Aphex Twin. We were getting records in the local ‘Our Price’ record shop like D-Zone, early bleepy techno stuff, but that Artificial Intelligence thing was the jump off point of getting excited about that the possibilities of techno music having a sort of broader area.
JG: The early Warp stuff was very melodic and listenable, almost quite syncable. Do you think that those artists like Aphex Twin and Autechre went from being very listenable to almost unlistenable? do you think that it was partly an act of resistance against becoming com-modifiable, to remain ‘underground’ ?
SP: Yeah I think that's a really good point, I think so, because there was always a sort of a spirit of faceless techno underground. Not wanting to get too commercial and to keep a sort of idea that there was a purer spirit with less limelight, so I think you're probably right. I think that there probably was a bit of a reaction to that, as well as being a little bit of competitive spirit into who could push things into the most bizarre territory. There was that feeling that you really wanted to challenge and make something new, which by its nature pushes you into these strange more challenging territories. I remember fiercely wanting to try make my own style of music, I'd get a little bit grumpy about being compared to some of my peers, even if I really liked their music. I had a spirit of trying to, not just naturally, but actually consciously trying to be different to other artists.
I think that's probably the same in a lot of those artists around that time as well, maybe trying to be different or trying to compete with each other. Not necessarily teenage angst, but that sort of slightly antagonistic of your audience and also sort of showing off your technical prowess. It’s what I call ‘impressive’ music now. Music that's amazingly accomplished and really complicated, but then I know although I like stuff like that, I would be like ‘that’s so impressive’ but I'll put that on the shelf then, and listen to something else I enjoy more!
JG: At what kind of point did you start getting into commercial work and doing things that were paid and that weren't pure artistic expression as it were, and how did you feel about that, did you feel like you were compromising?
SP: I think it was probably shortly before I finished University when it becomes clear that I was not going to make a living entirely from making my own music. The very first commercial job I got was just before the end of my Sonic Arts degree in London. It was a super cheesy advert for Pringles, because my brother was working at Designers Republic at the time and it was probably the first, maybe the only, TV ad they did, but he was the only one doing motion graphics, and there was a suggestion for doing me doing the music and I thought, I'm into that world now then.
It paid quite decent money that kept me going for a few months after college and then it all went a bit quiet and then it was a sort of desperate scrabble to try and figure out a way to pay the bills. There was a couple of months of sending emails every day to every motion graphics company and stuff like that and eventually got a couple of jobs.
JG: Did you have a showreel?.
SP: I’d only done the advert at that stage so I put that on VHS and a bunch of tracks with a logo on front of it or something really crap like that.
JG: And were you still working as an artist at that time?
SP: Yes the Freeform stuff was still going strong
JG: Did you separate the advert stuff from your artist persona - did you tell people in the scene that you were doing this stuff?
SP: I was in that sort of slight dilemma. I thought I'd make a separate website for it, which I did, very very basic with nothing much on it, but I was mostly focusing on doing music and I still did lots of gigs then, so that was most of my income. I mean there was definitely more stuff at the beginning, that at the time, I just wouldn't particularly want to be associated with the personal music stuff I was doing.
JG: And was that because it was the brands you weren't happy with, the political thing as well, you know that sort of thing was in a certain stance in the 90s with no Logo and all that anti corporate stuff?
SP: I think I was a bit uneasy, there was a bit of a judgement relating to doing commercial stuff which I'm not sure is there so much anymore. That sort of thing that seemed to be different back then compared to now. Yeah, I certainly was conscious that it should be separate.
JG: Do you think that it’s changed because people are sympathetic that artists need to make a living?
SP: Yeah, I mean it's not a secret is it that people don't earn money from the streaming and stuff like that so maybe people are a little bit more forgiving. like advertising stuff for example, there is ways to do it that can still be cool. like instead of selling your entire catalogue and it being on any advert at any point that's one end of the extreme, as well as unlikely unless you’re say, Moby. But at the other end is licensing some music for some cool fashion show or a brand you actually like. There's a middle ground where people can naturally go ‘OK well can I find the brand or a project that actually benefits my artistic image or outlook or whatever’.
JG: Are there brands and companies that you wouldn’t work with and conversely are there brands that you agree with ethically that you approach to work for?
SP:Well you wouldn't want to do a trump campaign would you? But I don't think I would be asked!
I’ve done quite a lot of stuff for a big car company, which came from a job about 10 years ago and contacts that came from that. They are quite keen to push into that artistic world- they are one of the main sponsors of the Tate. Those brands are pretty good for the kind of stuff I do which is often toeing the line between art and commerce.
JG: Do you agree that in a way a label, especially a major which is marketing your music is essentially commodifying your art in the same way as a product and that in some ways you might get more creative freedom in a commercial context where you have been selected for your own personal unique vision?
SP: Yeah, in a handful a jobs like some which are like big scale art projects, you are trusted to make something. Sometimes I have the other side of that, where I'm working with the company doing the visual side of it and working to their brief as well. But yeah, sometimes you do get a quite a broad scope to take things in a direction that isn't dictated strongly by the company. Like you say, if a label wants your music to sell, it’s likely they’re going to be micromanaging you to a degree. it's not as cut and dry as it seems. The only way to do music that is completely 100% authentic and free of any influence from outside is just to be just do stuff in your own time and then find somewhere for it after.
JG: Do you feel that by making commercial music it alleviates the need to make a living from your creative pursuits so you have more freedom to be authentic?
That's the theory! But there's all sorts of different factors within that. Once you are running a business, you're always either busily trying to get stuff done or you’re concentrating on getting the next commission in. It can be quite a challenge mentally to switch off and do your own thing.
I do managed to follow my own creative projects as well - and I think that’s essential to keeping things fresh. It can be a bit of a mental struggle when you've been doing a lot of commercial stuff, to sit down and do your own thing because then you'll almost have to relearn how to make music and how to judge things, without there being a client you're working for, weirdly.
JG: Yes, because you are your own client, do you have to compartmentalise those processes somehow?
Yes, that's what I've done. What I’ve figured out really is that when I'm making music for a client I’ve, normally got like a target in mind. I've got a brief or an idea of what they need and that's always being checked off in my head as I'm working even if it's subconscious. When I switch to making my own music, it's really easy to just shut yourself down by being overly critical about it, being confused about what you are actually trying to make instead of just enjoying the process. I’ve been learning to reserve judgement and just a work and enjoy the process. I can always go back to it the next week and judge later.
JG: It’s often difficult to have a critical distance or objectivity over your own work when you are judging your work as an artist isn’t it?
SP:Yeah I think so, it’s just a case of trying to step back and take a more sort of gentle approach and go ‘ it doesn't have to be the best thing in the world ever I'm just going to do my best’ and enjoy it.
JG: The new e.p. (Citrix - One Day) is basically your own artistic thing, but is part of a project branding project you've done for a US tech company so you actually releasing an album which has been facilitated or paid for by them- in a sense all you've done as a part of the brief and you release the single they will get a copy, it’s an interesting mix between commercial and creative for you
SP: It is yeah, what happened was I was doing a few bits of branding stuff and then I did some music tests and they were really into them. The agency I was working with suggested doing an e.p. so it's an artistic project, but I had a bunch of their ideals and their personality to communicate. I made these graphs of how far into abrasiveness I could go and how it should always be positive on this level, so I had a range that I could work within. I made a big palette of sounds that I used for it, then added more as I went. It was sort of like their personality channelled through my lens.
JG: Do you feel that you have been able to extend your creative practice within the restrictions of briefs that you have been given or maybe have those restricting briefs given you a framework to work against ?
SP: Yeah, having those sort of restrictions is really creative because you've got some direction to go in basically, you have a certain area that you're aiming for - that pushes you towards unique solutions I think. An ideal client will give you an idea of the feeling that they want and the things that they want to achieve it emotionally or aesthetically or whatever. It’s preferable to someone holding the paintbrush with me as it were.
JG: So they’ve chosen you because they like your stuff and know the kind of palette that you are working with to a certain extent?
SP: Absolutely, yeah. I think in the beginning when I was trying to get into this area, I very much wanted to claim I could do anything. I get quite a few emails from people asking for work that will say, well I can work in any style, you know. I’m sure that is useful for some things, if it was true, but it's not my strength. I can make things within different styles or take in influences, but it usually tends to sound like me. What you want is people coming to you for your taste. What I tend to do is make something that is authentically me, but fulfils the brief.
JG: I guess it's authentic to you too, what you actually you know and like and you understand the nuances and background and all the things about that kind of communication within the genre and instruments or whatever, like a genuine expression rather than something you’re trying to pastiche?
SP: Yeah, I think in the vast majority of the jobs I do I do feel like there's some authenticity and you know I'm proud of it basically, it’s not like ‘oh my god if I heard this I’m cringing but at least I got paid’ you know? It’s very rare that happens now.
You know, it's like when people say certain music is dead easy to do, but really it’s the authenticity that makes it good isn't it? It's not like because they've used this preset or used that preset. If it's a great song, it's because there's some authenticity in there. if you’re cringing as you are doing something it's never gonna work, people can hear it and tell I think.
JG:I like the use of organic sounds in your new music, is this a metaphor for humanity within technology or something around those themes?
SP: I've always been keen on using a bit of real sound, I like that area between electronic and real, so I use software that synthesises stuff that sounds real alongside acoustic instruments. Even with pure synthesis I often like to modulate by hand or rerecord through a speaker. I would say that it’s not a generally a conscious decision to push this as a metaphor though, its more something that comes naturally through my taste and approach.
I have quite a few real instruments, I've got a bunch of shelves of percussion and wind instruments and stuff. I’m not the best musician in a traditional sense, but I'll play them and won't worry too much, just get the feeling or vibe of what I want to achieve, Then I’ll shift timing and pitches it until it sounds right.
Often I’ll make most of the track in the computer or whatever and then have a session where you just get loads of instruments out and record a whole bunch of stuff playing all the way through. When you have a real layer to electronic music it's feels like it comes alive a little bit more. I also like using some hardware synths and effects as you get a bit more character or noise.
I don't normally use presets unless I'm trying to achieve a specific thing that references a particular genre or whatever. I sometimes use recorded string libraries or whatever, but a lot of those are so perfectly recorded they don't have the sort of humanity in them. As soon as you do a bit of recording yourself, and don't clean up too much, it often sounds more authentic.
JG: Yeah so we’ve talked about authenticity in terms of being true to your authentic self but there’s also the sounds of instruments and what is perceived to be authentic, the humanity of it
I take that sort of approach like a CGI film kind of pseudo-realism, where it's artificial but entirely possible. I like trying to make track sometimes that sounds like its played completely live, or improvised by a band or whatever.
Some of it faked and some of it programmed and some just played in by me. You can make things that actually just feel like a real live performance.
I did this EP a few years ago called Artifice and Angels which was made using libraries of real instruments, my own and commercial ones. I just explored, it doesn't matter if it sounds entirely authentic. Sometimes you can't tell whether it's real or not and I quite like that.
JG: Yes I was thinking some of it sounds a almost like Penguin Cafe Orchestra or Steve Reich or that kind of orchestral sound coming through
SP: Yeah, well we are in an age where you don’t have to have access to a room full of musicians to explore those sounds. I often work with real musicians, and I’d jump at the chance to work with a full orchestra for example, but at the end of the day I can sit in my studio and explore with those kind of sounds and achieve some interesting results. It will sound different to the real thing, but I just love having a whole world of sounds at my fingertips.